Discover Alison Smith's Journey: Metaphors for Transformation

KATHLEEN: I have Alison Smith here with us today and she has 23 years experience as a coach and speaker. Her podcast. Landscaping your life is about getting back on track when you're stuck and can't see the wood for the trees. Alison lives in Scotland. She loves going out for walks, open water, swimming, reading, writing and nature. Welcome, Alison.

ALISON: Thanks. For having me.

KATHLEEN: You're welcome. Allison, tell me a little bit. What time is it over there in Scotland? And what's your weather like over there?

ALISON: We've got snow.

ALISON: About an inch.

ALISON: It's nine o'clock at night. I got the timing though. I thought it was gonna be a bit earlier, so it's nine o'clock. I'll be going to bed immediately after this.

KATHLEEN: I appreciate that. You came on the show, I mean, we're in deep freezes over here in the States. The States are really going under some serious weather from El Nino. So that's why I was curious of what's happening Overseas with your weather.

KATHLEEN: So tell us a little bit about your journey of becoming an awakening spirit.

ALISON: I would say, I always say I was completely asleep until my husband left our marriage and then I realized that there was more to me than I'd thought beforehand. I was sort of, very reactive, not at all, proactive, didn't think about anything. So, I suppose that whole, oh my God, this was a bit of a shock.

ALISON: I thought, I expected him to be there forever, I suppose. And, so yeah, so did sort of dived into neurolinguistics programming and from then did some shamanic stuff and some Peruvian stuff and crystals and, I suppose it's all been uphill since then. Really? And that was, late nineties.

KATHLEEN: How have you used those tools, to re invent yourself as far as you in your career, that type of thing. Because I know you have a real different spin on what you do. And I'd like for you to go a little bit more in depth with the tools that you use and then how you chose to take them into the corporate world that you're using and how those metaphors came about and that type of thing.

ALISON: Yeah, it all started in the sort of mid nineties and I'm professional procurement purchaser by profession, originally, and we would try, I don't know if your visitors can relate, but if anybody's in business and they think, well, somebody's gonna try and persuade you that supplier management is interesting.

ALISON: You know, most people go nah, it's not interesting, Alison and that's what we were getting with the managers and we needed them to pay attention and I suppose intuitively used the metaphor of gardening. And so it's that whole, a garden needs pruning, it needs mowing, weeding, feeding.

ALISON: We need to think about where we plant the suppliers. And as soon as we said to the managers who were really ignoring us about supplier management. As soon as we said that the suppliers are no different to the plants we're talking about in the garden.

ALISON: It's as if the light bulbs went on. And so for me, that was my first experience of how profound metaphor is at being able to talk to people about things they have no awareness of. Because metaphors are about patterns, people could see the patterns in gardening.

ALISON: All I had to do was say those patterns apply to supplier management and they all went. Yeah. Well, we've got lots of wheat suppliers that are like weeds. And yes, we've got a supplier that's in the wrong place. So that's where it started.

ALISON: And then I think, I realized that, 00, if I expand the metaphor and it's not just gardening and its landscapes generally and if it's not just supplier management, but life then that's where landscaping your life came from in terms of yeah, using nature as a metaphor for our lives to find resolution and different perspectives.

ALISON: I think there's two reasons that it went in business. One was, I suppose I continued using metaphor because I'm an awkward. I don't like to be told what to do.

ALISON: The thing was that I'm there wanting to go on a journey and people have got lots of great ideas and I'm, you know, la, la, la, la, la, I don't wanna hear, don't wanna hear. But as soon as you talk metaphor to me, it's as if the doors really do open, it's like my logic will run rings, it'll resist change.

ALISON: It's like, no, I'm logic believes that, if I think I'm stuck, then I'm stuck and logic will defend my belief in my stuck. And so what I had to do really in order to grow and I suppose develop was find a way out of my logic's little shenanigans really.

ALISON: And metaphor was the way for me because it talks to a different part of me and it bypasses my logic and it talks to an inner wisdom. And so I realized if it talks to my inner wisdom, I wonder whether it talks to other people's inner wisdom. Oh yes. And that's what happened.

ALISON: And what I was really lucky about was whilst I was doing the N LP practitioner, the master practitioner, the trainer training and all this other training, our organization merged with another organization. And my boss basically said, oh, you can put that coaching to good use effect. Yeah, you're the team coach.

ALISON: And so I was able to use everything I was talking about in bringing our teams together, in resolving communication, problems and relationship problems. If people joined the department, they'd go, oh, if you've got a problem, go and see Alison. So I was really lucky that I wasn't having to sell my service. It's like people came to me.

KATHLEEN: And this all just from working in the corporate environment and when you saw problems, you came up with a metaphor for them to help them go further inside of themselves.

ALISON: Yeah. What I realized was that it's taken a while. So originally, I'd just say, let's go for a walk and I'd say what part of this landscape represents. The problem that we're talking about. What I then subsequently observed is when we're stuck, we use idioms in our language because we don't really want to spend the next hour telling somebody how we feel.

ALISON: We're gonna say, I'm stuck in a rut and, and just saying those words, people understand what we mean. And it's more than those words. It's that metaphor contains a lot more information. So we're conveying how we're feeling without spending loads of time saying it.

ALISON: So stuck in a rut. Can't see the wood for the trees in some parts of the world. It might be, can't we see the woods for the trees or even can't see the forest for the trees, up a creek without a paddle uphill, struggle stuck between a rock and a hard place.

ALISON: I mean, there's just an infinite number of idioms we use when we're stuck. And what I realized was those idioms contain the solution to the situation. So we'll say I can't see the wood for the trees and we absolutely are. The logical part of us goes, I am using this saying to convey that I am stuck. There are no solutions. I don't know what to do. I'm overwhelmed.

ALISON: And yet that there is a part of you that knows that if you hear the metaphor, you'll find a solution. Because what would you do in a real world if you couldn't see it for the trees or a forest? For the trees?

ALISON: I'd follow a path out or I'd go to higher ground or I might even just focus on one tree so we can come up with a lovely list of metaphorical solutions which we can then translate back to the real life situation. It's says if it bypasses, well, certainly for me, it bypasses my resistance to advice.

ALISON: So it's as if, because we're using a metaphor, we're not having advice imposed on us. I don't know, I'm sure I'm not unique in not being told what to do the metaphor.

ALISON: It's as if it takes the problem out of our brain, puts it in front of us and we can play around with it, but it's not got that person that you are really annoyed with. It's not got the three years worth of arguments there. It's just got the patterns and carry on.

KATHLEEN: Ok. We're gonna go ahead and take a quick commercial break. And when we come back, I have an idea of like of a power of conflict with people and how you would take a metaphor with something like that as well. Because I think a lot of people that might help people to understand how to apply that personally in their lives. So we'll be right back.

KATHLEEN: We are with Alison Smith, Alison. If there was a conflict going with a couple of people in your office executives or, middle management, middle management and the worker bee, so to speak, what would you do or how would you approach using the metaphors to help them get through their conflict?

KATHLEEN: Because in a workplace it's very heated and you don't want to be real vulnerable and then, you're fighting your own internal and you want to be professional, but sometimes you're just so angry. How would you approach something like that to help these people to get on a level playing field and not look at, I'm your boss, I'm the subordinate, whatever, how would you do that? Using a metaphor?

ALISON: Quite often people will present the metaphor to me. So I don't even have to go searching for it. They'll be explaining the situation and they might say I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place with this person.

ALISON: So they may present that and therefore I can then explore it.

ALISON: They might say I'm going round in circles.

ALISON: And there is a particular technique I'd do for that. Which let me write that down. I'll come back to that in a minute.

KATHLEEN: I love to hear when you get stuck between a rock and a hard place where I'm going in circles because I know when I work for people, I felt both of those.

ALISON: Ok. Well, oh, sorry. So the first thing that came to mind though is that I might ask somebody to draw it. So if the situation, because this actually is one of the quickest ways I know to get somebody to shift perspective and I do it quite and it's interestingly easy.

ALISON: I've done it quite a lot on virtual sessions where I'm not there at the other end of the the phone. And so I might say so. Absolutely. Any of the listeners, if they've got a situation that they'd like different insights on, then get a, grab a pen, grab a piece of paper and I would say, draw the mountain that best describes the current situation.

ALISON: And most people will be able to draw it and it's not about spending the next half hour drawing it. It's a one or two minute. Oh, yeah. It's the shape of it's this, it's this high. It may or may not have snow on it. Is there anything else on it?

ALISON: And so you end up with a starting drawing that depicts the current situation and therefore you might be able to look at it and go. Oh, well, it's no wonder I'm getting nowhere because it's, there aren't any paths, it's really steep.

ALISON: How on earth would I climb that? So you can sort of already look at the picture and go. Oh, yeah, that explains how I'm feeling. That's why I'm feeling unresourceful.

ALISON: And I suppose the premise is we do have the resources. It's just that the doors in our brain are closed off to those resources and therefore drawing. The first picture is doors are closed. That's how it feels. Then what I would invite you to do and you can either make the changes to the first image or you might have to start again, depending on what the changes you're going to make to it are.

ALISON: And that's to draw, make changes to it. So it might be, oh, actually it's very, it's a bit like a triangle, this mountain. It's no wonder I can't climb it because I keep slipping back down it. So you might have to make it a more undulating mountain or quite often people go, oh, I haven't even drawn any paths on the mountain.

ALISON: Or I have had people where they've said, oh, I need to draw a tent. I need to draw me. So everybody will be different about what changes they need to make. Some people might go. Oh. Well, I've imagined my mountain when it's raining and it's stormy and I just need to draw the sun. So it's just about coming up with an antidote picture. That is, oh yeah, that would be the solution.

ALISON: That would be the end result. And that would be a lovely situation. And what happens is, it's as if all we do is change our internal representation in relation to the situation. So if I was stuck in relation to that person, I've drawn a picture that relaxes my body, relaxes my mind accesses as a part of me. That's bypassed logic that says, all right. Yeah.

ALISON: And what happens is then logic can then come in and go. Oh, that just means I need to go out for a walk. I need to take responsibility for the fact that I'm part of this problem cos quite often when people start off with a, I've got a problem with that person. They're absolutely not taking any responsibility for their part in it and to be fair sometimes that might be, yeah, you've gotta walk away.

ALISON: So it's not about going back into an abusive relationship just because I'm saying we have a part to play. But if we know they're abusive, why do we keep going back in? So, and it could be that when the original mountain where there going, they've got change, they've got change.

ALISON: They're the problem, they're the problem. Draw a new mountain and we go, I've just got to walk away or just gotta try one more time, but I'll do it without anger. I'll do it. I can do it with this other mountain in my mind's eye. So I think that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to change our relationship to the problem.

ALISON: And quite often when people are talking to me, they're feeling very tight, very stressed. Not at all relaxed. So fight to flight may have even kicked in. So we don't have access to our prefrontal cortex even if we'd like to. So there's an element of what can we do to be more relaxed and open and then the solutions come in is what happens.

ALISON: So that's one. So that's one way if so if two people were having a problem, I'd say, and I wouldn't necessarily always get them to do it together. I'd say you go, I'd speak to them individually and get them to draw and see what they were able to do in terms of changing their relationship to the situation.

ALISON: Interestingly on a rock and a hard place. One of my episodes I did in my 2nd and 3rd series of my podcast is I will take a saying that we use when we're stuck out into nature. So, treading water, I went to the beach.

ALISON: I was there in the water, treading water and seeing what solutions might appear if we're treading water. So rock and a hard place. I had to go and find a situation that felt like a rock and a hard place.

ALISON: And then the idea is you find a situation obviously keeping safe. That was one of my more precarious, but nevertheless, it still is about keeping safe. And then once I'm in the situation, so whether it's, I can't see the wood for the trees or a rock and a hard place or an uphill struggle or whatever, it's just noticing what are the patterns.

ALISON: So the rock in the hard place is quite often we've walked into it so we could be able to walk out of it. But the biggest a ha for me on that day, in relation to a problem that I was thinking about was I was focusing on the 350 degrees of rock rather than the 10 degrees of not rock.

ALISON: So that it was something about when we're stuck between a rock and a hard place. We're observing the rock, we're observing the hard place and it's as if we're articulating and experiencing it as 100% 360 degrees rock and hard place. And I have yet to come across a situation and I'm not saying there aren't any, but I've yet to come across a place where there isn't even one degree if not rock and not hard place.

ALISON: And it's ok. So it's not easy. But there's that one degree. So let me focus on that one degree rather than, I went out and did a podcast, recording this morning and I was looking at the sea wall and going, oh, I feel very enclosed. I'm feeling very, sort of imposed upon. I'm feeling very, yeah, that sort of heavy shoulders down achy shoulders.

ALISON: But as soon as I turned round and looked to the openness then that risk that disappears. And I think that's what happens in situations that we're looking at the problem rather than looking at the solution. And when we're looking at the problem, quite understandably, we get ourselves upset.

KATHLEEN: I can see that. I remember when I was, I guess 17 years old, somewhere in there, I had gone into a drug rehab and we did this meditation that the owner had done to help us, like, look at where we're at because when you're on drugs and you're 17, you don't know anything anyways and the world is against you and all the lovely things that we decide the world is at 17, which is totally unrealistic.

KATHLEEN: I remember this. There was part of the meditation, especially when it's the first time you go through it, you really don't know what you're doing. And there was a point I think it asked about my father in this. There were two things that happened.

KATHLEEN: First of all, we're given a hat and what do you do with the hat? Well, I threw it away. Well, that was represented of my father. So a lot of people put the hat on and brought them in their life and I threw mine away. So that said something there. And then the other thing was, I think they asked something along the lines about if there's a conflict in your life and I'm up against the wall.

KATHLEEN: And I mean, this wall went off into affinity, literally went off into iffinity. It was like 10 miles thick. It was everything and it was like, just go find a way to either climb it or do something else. Well, I went around it. That was the only thing I needed to do at that point was that somehow I found the edge and went around it.

KATHLEEN: And because of that, and this was, this again, had to deal with my father because it was going to be an insurmountable problem. The rest of my life dealing with my father and I chose not to deal with it. I figured I'm just gonna go around it. I'm gonna live my life and I'm not going to have this man around me in my life.

KATHLEEN: And that's exactly what happened in my life. And every time he did show up it was nothing but problems and I got rid of him. And I yelled at every single family member that ever gave my father my contact information because when I said, I don't want that man in my life, I meant I don't want that man in my life. And there was a reason for it.

KATHLEEN: So that was the main thing. And then I remember years later, I was sitting in my living room and the Archangel Ariel had come in and I didn't know her name yet, but she had come in and she helped me to understand my father because now I'm in my forties and it's a lifetime of working through forgiveness.

KATHLEEN: And what was the purpose of this horrible man being in my life? And she showed me, she just literally showed me what the purpose was and I was able to forgive him because I had spent many, many years trying to forgive him because I never wanted to come back and deal with this man ever again.

KATHLEEN: I wanted to be released from him but I knew that my intense anger would keep me there. And so I was always looking for ways to forgive him. So I mean, going around the situation is one thing, but that doesn't always address the issue.

KATHLEEN: So that was why when you said this, I was thinking of that wall and yeah, I did go around and I still dealt with the issue, but I dealt with it the way I could handle it at the time because this was a big insurmountable type of event and person to deal with because he is your father and there is so much garbage wrapped around your parents anyways.

KATHLEEN: And so feeling that I had to do something along those lines was, I mean, what a gift because I didn't even realize at 17, what I was doing at that point and yet here I am doing this, but we're gonna go take a quick commercial break. And when we come back, I'd love to get some feedback on what I just said.

KATHLEEN: We have Alison Smith in the room with us today. Alison. Tell me, what would you think?

KATHLEEN: I mean, what I just told you prior to the break, what would be your opinion on that as far as using a metaphor, that type of thing? Yeah. Would that be something that you would do with people as well?

ALISON: Yeah, I've done what I've done a number of workshops actually just on, or webinars just on talking to a brick wall because quite often in relationships, we can use that. And that's a common metaphor. We, I interestingly, you've already come up with part of the solution.

ALISON: Well, all of the solution in terms of you realize that the brick wall, that the other person really was the other side of the brick wall. So quite often we say it's like talking to a brick wall and, and we're quite correct if it's like we're talking to a brick wall metaphorically, the brick wall will never talk to us. But if I say, the first question is where is the other person?

ALISON: They never are the brick wall there, it's always, ah there's a brick wall between me and the other person. So that changes the situation to start off with cos suddenly we're going, oh, it's about the brick wall. So as you did, it's about, realizing, and now you did describe it as very deep and very high.

ALISON: But I think most brick walls in life are not huge So there's also something about brick walls having an end, having a top, having a bottom, having a side somehow. So exactly, as you say, most times the solution is, how do I get over the brick wall? How do I get through the brick wall? How do I get round the brick wall? Do I want to?

ALISON: I mean, so one of the situations that when I wrote the poem, which I can't find the notes of currently. But when I wrote the poem about a brick wall, I realized that and when I did the first work, I realize there are times when the brick wall is being built for a reason and we do not want to do anything other than stay our side of the brick wall and they can stay on theirs.

ALISON: So it is about going. Am I happy with the situation? Either of us, either side of the brick wall? If not, then, yeah, what are the solutions to getting through it over it round it, et cetera? And then it's just about applying those thinking about that.

ALISON: But I think what happens is as soon as you start going, oh, I could get a ladder up it, I could put a wall in it. I could climb it, I could climb a tree. So that's along the side of it and do it then we're already shifting our perspective with respect to that other person. And we undoubtedly then would be coming up with different solutions with respect to them.

KATHLEEN: I had an insight when you were talking as far as having a brick wall between me and my father. And that's exactly what I wanted. I created that brick wall. I literally created it just by when you said that it was like, oh my God, I did this because I didn't want this man in my life. That's why it was so insurmountable and so thick and so wide.

KATHLEEN: But I still had to deal with the issue, whatever that issue was, which I know what it is, but I had to still deal with it. But I dealt with it when I was older and more mature and I had a little bit more understanding about life in general because at 17 years old, you don't know anything and life experiences has a way of teaching you that.

KATHLEEN: And so that was a beautiful gift I gave myself because it was my way of protecting myself from a very evil man. I mean, he was a very evil man. I had to protect myself and that was the only way I knew how to do it. So, yeah, I mean I never even thought of that, that I created it like that. So I want to thank you for that saying what you said to allow me to see that.

ALISON: Yeah, it was quite powerful when I wrote the poem, cos I thought that the workshop was all about demolishing brick walls for people. And then it became quite apparent that would be unhelpful and downright wrong really.

ALISON: So it was about saying you've gotta be sure that you want the brick wall to be down and if it's there for protection for safety, cos if you think about why are most brick walls in the world out there in nature are there for a reason? We don't just build a brick wall for no reason, whether it's protection, whether it's, to put, boundaries.

ALISON: But we're not normally running along, driving along a road and suddenly found a brick wall that we weren't expecting. So, they are there quite often for a reason and yeah, you're right, but it's the timing of, what, you know, The other interesting thing though is quite often. Most people listening will have never ever built a real brick wall.

ALISON: So we might have built metaphorical ones, but most of us haven't built real brick walls. So if so the brick walls in our life are there because we've positioned ourselves in relation to the brick wall.

ALISON: So there was something about moving. It's like, yeah, we've put ourselves here. We've sort of fabricated in our mind, really one of ourselves for there to be a wall between us and the other person. And therefore sometimes it's just about all I have to do is move and that wall is no longer between me and the other person.

ALISON: But I think the thing is, is that people listening will all have different relationships to different people and have different walls and be able to go. Oh, you know what? Yeah, actually it's a balloon wall and I can just go and pop it.

ALISON: You know, it's not really made of bricks. Yeah, I'm calling it a brick wall, but really it's lots of balloons.

KATHLEEN: Well, I have to tell you because this brick wall has always been part of my life in a way, not that I ever paid much attention to it, but I could be driving in the mountains and all of a sudden there's a wall of mountains right in front of me. And it's like, I'm going straight to the mountain and it's like, oh, my God, it's like, and it spans the whole peripheral vision.

KATHLEEN: Right. And you just see it and you know that the road is going to change and go around it, which is exactly what I did. So, it's another metaphor in my life. But when I see a wall of mountain in front of me and I've seen quite a few different types of walls of mountain in front of me.

KATHLEEN: And it's like, ok, what's showing up for you in your life because this is an obstacle that's coming, you can see that you can get over it, but going straight ahead into it is not an option. So what are you going to do? What is coming up for you now, today that you need to look at so you can shift whatever the perspective is. And there is always something, there's always something when that wall comes up.

KATHLEEN: And I go back and I reflect, I'm like, well, yeah, I'm kind of struggling with this right now and then I start thinking about, well, what can I do? And then the road starts to curve and then I'm like over it. It's the funniest thing because I pay attention to some of the weirdest things. I think people would think I was crazy.

ALISON: Well, I do that all the time.

KATHLEEN: I know, but most people don't talk like that. People don't talk like that and they don't think like that. And here I am, I'm driving along and I'm like, oh, wow, what's that animal meaning over here on the end? Oh, I'm watching this.

KATHLEEN: You know, you go in and you see wildlife doing things they're giving you messages. It's just what is the message, what does the message mean to you? What do you need to get from what you're visiting? Right? Now I do that all the time. I always look for nature.

ALISON: That is the whole premise of landscaping your life in that. If you take a problem on a walk, you will notice the patterns that relate to the issue and you can, I can go to the same ward, or the same beach and take a different problem and I'll just notice completely different things today.

ALISON: A friend had asked me to do something on grief and I found myself at a completely different part of the beach that I'm never at normally. And it was just perfect but I didn't logically choose it. I just went, ok. I've said that I'll see if I can do it. And, I thought, oh, that's interesting.

ALISON: How have I got here? Oh, this is, and then it was quite interesting. I found it interesting anyway. So that's why I love doing landscaping and life walks with people can do them remotely. I can be in my office and they're walking around, I don't know. L A or, Florida, recent ones.

ALISON: And, yeah, it's really interesting about what cos I go, oh, that's interesting. You keep, that's the pattern that keeps recurring on this walk, you know? So it's the recurring patterns.

ALISON: But the other thing is if somebody wants to turn a corner in life, then go and find a corner to turn in nature and just notice what you notice. Cos it never fails to amaze, never fails to amaze me the insight from doing that.

ALISON: Even after 23 years, it's that whole and every time I think, well, perhaps this time it's not gonna work and especially if it's like you think. Oh, well, I know what's gonna happen when I go round this corner and you don't because it's a new situation, it's a new corner and something else will happen.

ALISON: Either the sun will come out or there will be something there that you weren't expecting. It's like, oh, of course, that's what I need to recognize in respect to this situation.

KATHLEEN: Good. So what is one piece of advice you would offer our audience to help them move into a different direction, to achieve their dreams or become a better person?

ALISON: I'd say, what's your language in terms of pay attention to your language? Cos your words you're using, give you the help you find the solution. But I think for me, the piece of advice I get from nature more often than not is patience because we don't plant a seed and then keep poking it, you know, our finger in the soil every second to go.

ALISON: Come on. Come on, come on. And yet that's what we do with ourselves, we plant an idea. We want to do something different. We don't allow it time to germinate.

ALISON: We don't give it the conditions it needs to grow. We expect it to be there immediately and yet that's not what we see in nature we see in nature, tides and seasons and the day, sunrises and sunsets, even storms have got a pattern to them, a start in the middle and an end.

ALISON: And, and so I think we've got a lot to learn with respect to that cos we just expect everything to happen and sometimes give up too quickly. I think, interestingly, one of the things that I find when I was, oh, uphill struggle.

ALISON: Well, in fact, in a lot of the sayings is that I find myself saying, but that the hard work wasn't as long as I thought it to be. It's that whole an uphill struggle, but it's an uphill struggle for 10 minutes.

ALISON: What am I talking about? You know what I mean? It's not a uphill struggle for the next six years. That would be an awfully big hill, most hills we can do quite quickly.

ALISON: So I think it is that getting some perspective, which again is we get is what we get when we go out into nature because there's 360 degrees worth of perspective. And quite often in our lives, we're only looking at that 10% of the directions and thinking that's the situation.

KATHLEEN: Ok. Well, how can people get a hold of you?

ALISON: There's lots of Alison Smiths. So, landscaping your life. So, landscaping your life with Alison Smith is the podcast Landscaping your life on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, linkedin. So, yeah, if you do landscaping your life even on Amazon, you'll find the can't see the wood for the trees book. So landscaping your life would be the way to find me.

KATHLEEN: Well, thank you so much Alison for being here with us today. I think it was very insightful. I certainly gained some insight as to what I did and how I chose to live around my so-called brick wall. I do really appreciate you being here and I hope you have an enjoyable sleep that you're not too wound up after the show and stay warm. Thank you.

KATHLEEN: You're welcome.

KATHLEEN: So I want to thank the audience for being here today and if you found value, I would really love it if you would subscribe and like the channel @KathleenMFlanagan. My books, Dancing Soul. The Call, The Dark Night of the Soul and Awakened are now available on Amazon. Com as well as KathleenMFlanagan. Com.