Navigating the Thin Boundary Between Worlds

Kathleen Flanagan (00:02)
Have you ever wondered what lies in the spaces between where you are and where you want to be? Those strange empty places that feel both familiar and alien at the same time. There's actually a name for this feeling, liminal spaces. They're transitional areas that aren't meant for lingering, but somehow pull us in with their emptiness. Think of an empty mall after closing or a school hallway

during summer break. In 2019, a single post on 4chan changed everything when someone shared what became known as the backrooms. No exits, no people, just endless emptiness. It sparked an entire internet obsession with these in-between places. But here's where it gets really interesting. Scientists have discovered why these places feel so unsettling to us.

is called the uncanny valley effect in architecture. Places that are almost normal, but just slightly off trigger our survival instincts. And now AI is unintentionally creating endless digital environments that capture this exact feeling. Empty hallways, abandoned offices, and vacant lobbies that don't actually exist.

Matt Strunk (01:16)
Come on.

Kathleen Flanagan (01:32)
These artificial spaces are perfectly liminal because they were never meant to be inhabited. They're the digital embodiment of the spaces between reality and imagination. The next time you feel that strange unease in an empty parking garage or a silent hospital corridor, remember, you're not in a physical space. You're standing in the thin boundary between worlds.

Hello everyone and welcome to the journey of an awakening spirit. This is Kathleen Flanagan and I'm your host. And today I have Matthew Strunk with us and he is a serial entrepreneur with multiple business exits and the founder of Illuminae Shift. He helps people escape the success trap and creates lives on their own terms. Welcome Matthew. You're welcome.

Matt Strunk (02:26)
Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited

to dig in. That was an awesome intro. That was good.

Kathleen Flanagan (02:31)
Yeah, and since we're gonna be talking

about the spaces in between, what I wanna do is learn a little bit more and have our listeners know a little bit more about your journey of becoming an awakening spirit and how this led to the spaces of in between.

Matt Strunk (02:50)
Yeah, definitely. ⁓ You know, my story, I the best place to start briefly, I suppose, is childhood, like always, you know, but I had, growing up, I had probably up until the age of about 10 or 11, I would have told you I had a ⁓ good childhood. ⁓ You know, we didn't have a lot of money or anything like that, but it was good. ⁓ But that's right about when my parents split and I had found out my father at...

was actually diagnosed with bipolar disorder, with schizophrenic tendencies and things of that nature. So my childhood from that point on basically existed of never knowing what version you were gonna get of your dad. sometimes an example would be at three in the morning, he'd come and just kick my door down off the hinges. And he would just start screaming at me about something that never happened, which was a real mind twist for a 12-year-old. ⁓

On top of that, we had a family business and I had to work all the time basically. anyways, fast forward to when I was 18, I decided I don't want to work anymore. So I'm going to start a business. That's going to like somehow solve it. And I would define my state of mind at that time as, you know, feeling lost in life, probably ⁓ stuck. ⁓ Just, you know, the usual. So anyways,

I figured if I could chase after like the money and maybe the status and like all of the things I didn't have growing up and that that would fix the feeling I have inside of that emptiness. If you would. So fast forward even further after a few, a few, uh, business failures, I finally had some that succeeded, um, scaled rapidly. I ended up selling a few companies and. You know, fast forward, call it almost 15 years. And I was like,

You know, now everything's changed. have all this money and status and all of the things I never had growing up and I still felt lost and stuck. And I was like, son of a, like now what do I do? That was supposed to solve it all, you know? ⁓ but every time I got somewhere, I just kind of, you just kick it down the field more and you kick it down the field more. So anyways, that sent me down a different path of like, all right, I got to figure out why do I have this feeling inside of like, I can't seem to fill this hole.

And that sent me down a path for probably about two years of like research and different spiritual frameworks, therapists, coaches, like anything I could get my hands on. And I didn't really get anywhere with it. I learned a whole lot, but I didn't get anywhere inside. And then I had this one session where it was a therapy session and it was related to my father and some of the trauma from childhood with that.

And for some reason during that moment, I had felt this like overwhelming sense of like compassion for him, you know, because at he was at that time the same age as I am today. And I was just like, man, like his life also like sucked though. Like, and I just like, I dunno, I just felt like compassion towards him. I'm like, you know, and it's like something opened up in me and I had this encounter and it was like super surreal. And then at that moment I was like, Oh wow.

And then I realized everything I've been looking for has actually been inside me this whole time. And I've been looking outward to try to find it. And that's what the society does around us is it has us pointing our attention to anything other than ourselves. And that's really where you need to be. So anyways, that's kind of a long story, but that's takes you up to where I am now. And I'm trying to help other people now sort of get unstuck and find their own way towards that path.

Kathleen Flanagan (06:33)
Okay, so what how did you navigate the emptiness inside of you?

Matt Strunk (06:39)
It was tough. I, um, you know, I, I navigated it by.

Kathleen Flanagan (06:40)
Hahaha!

Matt Strunk (06:49)
⁓ geez. mean, there's, I've done so many things. I've assumed that it was the big mental issues for myself. You know, maybe it's like just clinical depression or ADHD or like something label wise. ⁓ but that all didn't really yield any results. And then I was like, okay, I'm probably still just not being enough in business and stuff. So I start, I just was like violently starting businesses was my way of coping with it. Cause I just felt like at some point it was going to click.

And it just got really hard because, and for me it was a unique angle because on the outside everything looks so good. And it was almost, it was challenging because I felt like so ridiculous to say anything to anyone about it. Because it's like, I'm not trying to be ungrateful, but it's like, feel lost and disoriented, but like I can't even talk to anyone about it. So it's just like, like, what do I do? And.

You I guess you asked how did, how did I deal with that space? I just violently tried to fill in the silence with noise, you know? And then I got into other distractions, ⁓ with whether it be drinking or like gaming and just anything to distract myself. So I didn't have to sit with that feeling was kind of my initial, my initial strategies, ⁓ which didn't work very well. So yeah.

Kathleen Flanagan (08:12)
It doesn't work for anyone because I can relate to all

of that.

Matt Strunk (08:16)
Yeah, but yeah, it really wasn't until I started making space and working inside that I found the blockages that were really holding me back. And when I faced those fears and I faced that darkness and I really went at it with intention of healing those things, that's when I felt like I started getting traction, kind of turning around.

Kathleen Flanagan (08:44)
So it's all about just sitting and being with it.

Matt Strunk (08:48)
Yeah, I mean it really is like just create that space. Yeah, exactly.

Kathleen Flanagan (08:51)
It's about that it sucks to be you.

Cause I

talk about that a lot on my show that ⁓ it does, it sucks to be us some days. And when we, on the outside, because the way I look at it was a mask. I wore a mask as you just so eloquently put that you had everything. You had the money, you have everything you wanted. You had more than what your parents had. You're successful, you're selling businesses and yet you've got a mask on and inside you're suffering in silence.

Matt Strunk (09:24)
Yes.

Kathleen Flanagan (09:24)
because you don't know

what this angst is because something's wrong on the inside. And as I did myself, I just kept being busy or kept being more creative or on to the next, on to the next, on to the next. Never stopped to give myself one ounce of credit or glory for what I did. It was because I couldn't stand the angst.

Matt Strunk (09:43)
Yes.

Yes, 100%.

Kathleen Flanagan (09:53)
And I remember

when my father passed away in April, I went down that rabbit hole again in a way that I did not know, but didn't make sense to me because I knew how to navigate this. I knew to be with it. I knew this, but it was darker. And I think that was when, because I met you on the other side of that navigation, but I just remember thinking this is so important to really explain

It doesn't matter what the mask is. It doesn't matter how enlightened you are because here you are a newbie, so to speak, going through it, trying to figure out how to navigate it. I'm on the other side, know how to navigate it, and I'm still in it. It doesn't matter, people. It does not matter where you are in your life. You are always going to have those spaces in between because this is where you are. This is where you want to be.

and somewhere you got to get that gap. You have to go into it. I'll put it like Moses, like we are in a transitional ascension process on this planet and we are in the 500 years or whatever it was, the Moses thing, you know, when they left Egypt and it was the 500 years, that's where we're off. That's where we are on a global basis as well. So I just took this up to a whole new level for you, Matt.

But what you're saying is that's making sense because I had a conversation with a friend of mine about this too, because this infinity wave is coming in and this person will be on, Hope Fitzgerald will be on in January about it, which is part of navigating this new world that's coming in. And if we look at what's going on in our world today,

Matt Strunk (11:20)
Yeah, yeah, I like it. I like it.

Kathleen Flanagan (11:49)
There's a lot of people that are suffering in silence, that have the masks on, that are getting inundated with light, they don't know what to do, they're miserable. We have mental health issues, we have suicide. We have too many things going on in the world right now. And it's because of this.

So when he says to sit and be with it and I say to sit and be with it, yes, you have to accept that it sucks to be you. Yes, you have to let all your garbage come up because it will about what a worthless piece of garbage you are because you should be doing this this this this and this and this and this this and and that's ego talking.

Matt Strunk (12:26)
Yep. And, and for me, you know, and I think you're accurately kind of depicting that I'm earlier in the journey in a lot of ways, but it's, it's funny how the ego holds on so desperately. Cause like even I've been really working on awareness and I'm like, I feel like I'm pretty good at it, but like, it'll just like, like, all right, like it'll just like hijack something with intentions. You know, it's just like, ⁓ yeah, no, that, isn't good. So yeah, we'll do this.

but we're gonna, you and then you just, all the time, it's just like, it's a challenge for sure. I was thinking about the in-between before our call, and I was like, another kind of way, you know, the term in-between can be applied in so many different applications, but I was like, in a way also, it's like almost that space in between like your false self and your true self too, where you're like unraveling all of that, you know, and for me, I had built such an identity.

Around the successful entrepreneur guy. And that's where I was trying to drive myself worth from and my self compassion from. And when you remove that to your point, it's like, well then what the hell are you? You know? And I remember like some dark encounters that I had where it was like, you know, you're nothing without me. You're only here because of me, you know, ego wise, and you will fail and spiral without it. And it's like scary kind of.

It's like, but anyways, I digress slightly, but you know.

Kathleen Flanagan (13:57)
No, but it's true

because I actually had a conversation with Joey Drill Sager, who was on my show at beginning of the month. And before we got on the show, we were talking about our wins and like all the successes that we've had since the last time he was on the show. And I was telling him about the event with my father and the suicidal tendencies that came back up that I did not expect to see. And they showed up. I and even though I was aware and knew what was happening and I knew it was the ego.

Matt Strunk (14:20)
Yeah.

Kathleen Flanagan (14:24)
He had asked me a very specific question. He said, is it, and you did what happened with Joey. So I don't know if this is a male side and women are different. I don't know. But I said, it was, I was saying this stuff to myself and he was saying, cause as you just said, you're nothing without me. And to me, that's the devil speaking. That's not an ego. That's something bigger than you. Because if I'm saying,

I don't want to live anymore because I don't know who I am and my identity is wrapped around a perpetrator. That's more dangerous in my opinion, because as long as it's outside of you, it's not you talking to you. But see, I'm talking to me. You know what I mean? And I want to make that very clear because this was something that when Joey asked me that question, I had to stop and think about it. And the minute

Matt Strunk (15:12)
Great. Yeah.

Kathleen Flanagan (15:23)
I said, no, I say it to myself is when we realized that in this, there is a darkness because we are a yin and yang. There is always balance in the universe and the darkness is just absence of light. It's not necessarily evil, but we give that, we say that the ego is evil because it's our ego that lives us. The ego is who we are. We have to transcend that limiting ego's

Matt Strunk (15:40)
Right. Yep.

Kathleen Flanagan (15:52)
egotistical piece of us because all its duty is is to keep us alive. And it remembers caveman days, folks. So when it's feeling a little uncomfortable in today's society or you're making a change and it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not comfortable. Get back there, drink your beer and watch TV and make like my life easy because I don't like what you're thinking of doing now.

Matt Strunk (15:55)
Thank

Kathleen Flanagan (16:20)
because I don't have any recourse, I don't have any knowledge behind it. And that to me is what the demonic side is, is because how many people sit there, because our ego is so strong, it does affect our central nervous system. I thought I was having a heart attack the first time when I was making this massive change. I literally thought I was having a heart attack every single night and I had to talk myself through it. It's okay.

Matt Strunk (16:38)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathleen Flanagan (16:49)
I lived a good life. I'm okay. If I die, I'm okay. And I had to talk myself through that. I mean, really seriously, that's not normal people, but when you're making massive change and you're facing the darkness because I was right like dead center in the in-between space, but I was so dialed in on where I wanted to go, that's what got me through it too. And when my father died and I saw that little tiny light,

little itty bitty flicker of light. I put my attention on that because the ego can be very powerful. So you've got to take, you've got to go back to your goal, your dream, whatever that hope is, God, whatever you need to do, but find it because that is your navigational piece. That's about staying the course. As we were talking about this friend of mine of, I have this button of stay the course.

Matt Strunk (17:25)
Yeah.

Kathleen Flanagan (17:46)
sitting on my desk, okay? Because we can navigate away so much as you were saying. You were being pulled and yet you had to keep bringing yourself back.

Matt Strunk (18:00)
Yeah, it's, and it's still, mean, it's a constant thing. It's, better, but it's still there, you know, like even with the Illumishift stuff and doing content and all, you know, purpose behind this whole endeavor was to shift from just trying to make money to being like, no, I want to actually help other people that were in a similar position to me. And maybe all they know is that who they thought they were, isn't it?

they don't know what that means outside of that. They just know this isn't it. And it's like a very confusing space, especially cause a lot of people like in the world I came from, you you start getting into spirituality or anything. No, get out, you know. So it's like bridging that gap too, where it's like, so now I work with people and try to like allow them to find themselves, you know, and it's been working where, you know, we come in through, want to change my career. I want to change this. I want to do that. And then we,

we work, we work, and then we get to a point and it's like, oh, this is where I'm at. It always comes down to the same thing almost. It's crazy. But yeah. But what I was saying with the Illumineshift stuff is it starts creeping in, because I'm doing content and I'm like, all right, pushing the content out, and then when I have a million subscribers, that would be so impressive. I'm like, that's not the point. It's, yeah.

Kathleen Flanagan (19:21)
And I think that's what helps and I'm going to take, go back to Joey because it's about, cause he was my coach at one point and this really drove getting out of the mind so much, going to my heart. If you go into your heart, it takes all a lot of that stuff that's in there. Some of that living self-belief that I have to do it.

Matt Strunk (19:38)
Yeah. ⁓

Kathleen Flanagan (19:49)
and you actually bring in a higher force to help you navigate that. Because we all need coaches, we need people in our lives because people outside of us see us differently than we see ourselves. And they can see if you're deviating or not. And that was what I thought. And I had to learn how to get into my heart because to me, is all, everything's up here. You make money up here, you don't make it through your heart. my heart was always, wanna help people.

And then how do you make money with that? And so he was helping me navigate through that. And it sounds like the same things happened with you is that when you got into your heart, you started opening and finding more ways to help people more effectively. But we still have to get through the noise.

Matt Strunk (20:35)
Yeah, a hundred percent.

Yep. Yep. And it creeps back, you know, and it's a, it's a constant thing. Cause like for me, I've noticed like there's like almost a switch of sorts. Cause like there's tendencies to, to lean back on old patterns that led to success. It's like, I can get lots of stuff done. I can scale businesses quick. I know what to do. And then like, if you turn the switch on,

It's like the mind tries to take over and you're in here thinking it through now because that's what worked. So it's like, and then it's like, and then I could see it where, you know, I start sliding and other stuff and the noise starts creeping in and, know, and I, and then I notice it I'm like, yeah, it's getting loud again. And I have to like, remember to bring myself back and yeah, it's. It's like cyclical, you know? Yeah.

Kathleen Flanagan (21:22)
Yeah, it's habitual. That's the thing is we

are habitual creatures. And so we're always going to go back to a habit of what we know that works, but we're evolving. So we have to go back and I mean, it's nothing wrong that you go back because you know how to scale the business, but just as long as you're in your heart scaling the business and that you don't know. So the ego's like, no, I don't like this. I know how to do it this way. So let's go here. And now you feel like crap again, because

Matt Strunk (21:43)
That way.

Yeah, exactly.

Kathleen Flanagan (21:51)
your head's running the show and things get harder. I've noticed when I do that too, things get very difficult when I'm in my head and it's like, and then nothing seems to work. And it's like, why isn't it working when it should? And the minute I get into my heart, because what's the message I keep getting? Just allow, allow. That means if I don't know what to do, then sit back, do something else and allow it to come to me.

Matt Strunk (21:52)
Yup. Yup.

Kathleen Flanagan (22:20)
because that's how co-creation happens. Because we're co-creating, we're spiritual beings having a human experience. And we were never designed to do this alone. We are a society of people. We need people, we need spirits, spirits guiding us. We ask them to help us maneuver through this life. And where do they come from? They're in the quietness inside.

Matt Strunk (22:48)
Hmm.

Kathleen Flanagan (22:48)
the part that we never

Matt Strunk (22:49)
Yep.

Kathleen Flanagan (22:50)
wanna go to, but that's where it resides. So.

Matt Strunk (22:53)
Yep,

that's, yeah, exactly. You have to face those parts you don't wanna face first, at least for me, to get to the other side of it, you But yeah, like I remember I had, you know, recently I was like just meditating for a while, just got quiet, and like, I mean, an entire, well, a lot of the framework I now teach and work through just download into my brain, basically.

Like, I mean, just pages and pages and everything just boom, boom, boom. This is all I'm like, sweet. This is like way easier, you know, like, like it's just a flow state of sorts. And then, and then other times I try to, and I can feel the shift that you were saying, and then it's just so much harder and it's friction and it's like, doesn't feel, you know, and I'm like, yeah, I'm, I'm overcomplicating this. Cause I get that a lot too. Like don't overcomplicate it. Just, you know, ⁓ so yeah, so that's.

It's been an experience. continues to be and I imagine it will continue to be, but you know.

Kathleen Flanagan (23:53)
Nothing changes like that because it's just about a revolution. So what are some of the techniques that you give your clients on how to start navigating through this? So if I was to come to you and say, you know, my job sucks, I'm not doing really well, I don't know what's, there's like this weird angst, what would you say to somebody and getting them to go down that path?

Matt Strunk (23:56)
Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah. So normally I meet them where they are because if I, if I try to, ⁓ interject some of my own beliefs or whatever too soon, then, you know, it creates that defense. I let them lead the dance in a way, cause they'll come in with a problem they have that they want to solve. And they'll come in with all of the things they've tried to solve it. ⁓ and then we'll do like an initial sort of, packet if you would about like,

Core values, life vision, like rate your area and these, like all those usual kinds of things, just to get them to start thinking like in an introspective sort of way. and that in itself starts to kind of even open it up when you start asking people about like, what do you value in life? And then just like, you know, like, like, here's what I have on the wall at work. And it's like, no, no, no, no. Get rid of that. What do you actually value? And so anyways, we start there and then we move, you know, I always run them through like sort of a

three phase process and that first phase is clearing the noise, always where I start. So we do that to get them going, get them thinking, and then it will also self-identify areas where they think are holding them back in life. So it can be maybe sleep, could be diet, it could be exercise, it could be nature, could be relationships, whatever. And then that's where we'll start and we'll identify an MVC or what I call a minimum viable change that they'll make.

to start clearing that noise. And that's where we normally start. And a lot of times, it's the usual lifestyle changes that I think all of us have tried before. ⁓ But the difference is, and I try to make it clear, when we make these changes, like say to diet or whatever it is, ⁓ they almost will never stick. We always fall back. And part of that is because it's not really tied to anything

bigger than you. Like you're doing it because you're like supposed to do it or like, I don't know, cause I should or whatever, but it's not tied to like identity. It's not tied to like some purpose. Like it's not tied to something concrete enough to get you through it. So I tell them right up front, like just know that this is a temporary thing in a way that seems to help them get through it too. Cause like, well, I only have to suck it up for a little while just to get through the noise part, you know? ⁓

But yeah, so that's where we start that phase one clear the noise lifestyle changes, and then we'll just work on the problem that they come to me with. ⁓ and then we'll do that. And normally it's been lasting probably around two to three months, I say, and then we get to a place where they're like, you know, I think that the issue might actually be. then, and then that's when we move into phase two, basically. And that's the inner work at that point, cause now they're open to it. Now, like.

They're open to the possibilities of what could be, and they're more comfortable with turning inward and doing some inner work at that point. And that's what phase two is then at that point.

Kathleen Flanagan (27:21)
No,

that makes sense because meeting people where they're at, because a lot of times people, everybody's at different phases in their life and how many people never really hear or listen to the person on the other side because you're so busy worried about what you're going to say next instead of giving them that space to face it. And I think once they know that there's

At least it was for me that if I felt safe, I felt like I could share and really go deeper because, know, it's real easy to go surface. It's real easy to do surface. And I know that even though I wrote this chapter in this anthology book about the final phase of my healing with my father before he died, I was as deep as I went, I was still very surface and I knew it.

Matt Strunk (27:58)
Yeah.

Kathleen Flanagan (28:14)
but it was like, is beyond what most people can handle, so I'm not gonna go there, except for the editor on the book. Yeah, he could see, he's like, there's more here. And I wanna worry about it. And I was so resistant to it because I was grateful that he could see it, and I was grateful that he pushed it, even though I cried every time I was on the phone with the editor, because he was pushing me to go further.

Matt Strunk (28:22)
Yeah.

Hey!

Kathleen Flanagan (28:43)
But if he didn't do that, would I have had the healing and the breakthrough that I would have not had had he not done that? And the answer would have been no. And I would have continued to suffer. So him holding that space, allowing this part to come out, even though he said, you don't have to do this, you don't have to write this and you could do something totally different. And it was, have to do this. I had to do it for me. And I think that was the part.

when you're saying when they finally go, well, maybe there's something about me, there was something even deeper that, and you have to feel safe to wanna go that deep with somebody you really don't know. And one of your greatest fears is you'll walk out and you'll institutionalize me, cause I'm crazy. You know what I mean? We think like that. We'd really think like that. And so to have that kind of a safety and that you can pre-

Matt Strunk (29:22)
you

Yeah. Yep. Yeah, exactly.

Kathleen Flanagan (29:39)
provide that, I think that's huge because so many people really need to know they're safe about their deepest fears. And their fears are just their monsters that they created because once they say it, it's usually not as bad as you think.

Matt Strunk (29:47)
Yep.

Yeah. Yeah. I have this tool called the fear ledger, which we use for that exact purpose. Yeah. So, yeah. So like a ledger. Yeah. So it's like a ledger, like an accountant, you have a ledger and you account for all these things. ⁓ but it's the same concept, but we basically document all of the fears that come up as we explore them. And then we categorize them and there's different systems with it, but it's basically what I found in practice is like, like what you just said, when you get it out on paper and you look at it.

Kathleen Flanagan (30:02)
Okay. I love it. Describe that a little. That sounds cool.

okay.

Matt Strunk (30:29)
a lot of it's just BS, you know? You're just like, it's not. And it makes it easier to, like, something about it that made it easier to handle now because it's on paper. Because normally you just think about it and you let it kind of circulate and you give it all this power and then you kind of let it sink back down. It's just haunting you this whole time. And then what it also does is it raises your awareness in life when things are coming up that are being.

triggered from one of those fears, it's easier to make that connection. I'm like, oh, that's fear seven. Call right out. That's this fear. And you can say it and then it just helps you get past it. That's been a pretty cool tool that we use.

Kathleen Flanagan (31:11)
Yeah,

and that's really good because how many people don't know what they feel? They don't. We are so, on many levels, emotionally unintelligent because people don't know what their emotion is. And when you sit with it, you start learning because all of a sudden you have a new vocabulary. this is overwhelm. this is fear. my God, this is terror. This is hopelessness. This is anger.

Matt Strunk (31:16)
A lot, yeah.

Yeah.

Kathleen Flanagan (31:39)
You know, we know certain emotions, but when we start going deeper into the subtleties, and the only way you know that is to be present, and being present is being with you, spending that time with them, yourself.

Matt Strunk (31:55)
Yeah.

Yep. And, and, and also, yeah, a hundred percent. And I think reflecting on those things, like you said, it's like learning a new vocabulary of sorts. And it's like journaling after our sessions and documenting things. Like it helps because it makes it real. Like it makes it something you can actually tangibly see now. You know, I don't know. It's something about it that otherwise it just, you keep it all trapped and just kind of circulates and stuff. It's like, no, write it down. Write it down.

And that's helped a lot. And I had a session just the other day and the individual was having trouble with the business. They really wanted to start this business, they've been working on it and they just need help to break through it. And we've been working together long enough that the trust was built there enough and ⁓ we got into more of a meditative state and I asked them to turn inward and ask yourself, because you have the answer, just ask yourself this one question.

Do I actually want this?

Kathleen Flanagan (32:58)
It's a powerful question.

Matt Strunk (33:01)
Yeah. And, and just sat there and he said, ⁓ shit, I don't, I don't want this. But there you go. That's why you're stuck. You know, you don't actually want it, but yeah. And that's just getting that space, turning inward, being honest. Yeah. I don't, I don't want this.

Kathleen Flanagan (33:05)
Hahaha

And take

your time with that answer too, because it was you, Matt, who made me realize what I do and don't want to do. And I just got was informed today that I'm going down a path I don't even know about yet. So who knows what this is? But the whole point was, that, you know, struggling getting where I wanted to go with my coaching business and all of this stuff in. And I'm just like, well, one day I do, one day I don't. It was back and forth.

Matt Strunk (33:37)
Nice.

Kathleen Flanagan (33:51)
I'm really good at coaching and I'm really good at all of this. But it was like, but am I serving the greater good by doing this? And there was so many things that I just couldn't pinpoint it. And this took, this is probably three years back and forth trying and I'm building it, I'm growing it and I'm doing all this, but there's something still like missing.

And then everybody's like, well, is this what you want? And I said, well, I don't know yet. That's all I kept saying is I don't know. I can't get the answer and I sit with it a lot until I met you.

Matt Strunk (34:23)
Yeah.

Yeah, oh, that's awesome.

Kathleen Flanagan (34:28)
So when

I met you and we had our pre-interview conversation, I think I had a conversation with a friend of mine, because I told her, you know, we hadn't talked in months and she didn't know about my dad or anything. So I was telling her about that and she said, well, what is it that you want? And I said, I'm not really sure. And then you popped in my head and I realized what I want to do is write courses for people like you. Because I have that knowledge and understanding.

Matt Strunk (34:53)
Yeah, that's awesome.

Kathleen Flanagan (34:56)
that I could write these and then sell them to coaches to help them navigate because I think I could do more because I still have the knowledge base. I still am around people, but it was like that was like, that's what's making my heart sing more because I love to do content. I rather do content and instead of always being around people because it's, it's sometimes it's a hard, it's an energy drain for me.

Matt Strunk (35:17)
Yeah, that's awesome.

Kathleen Flanagan (35:26)
You know, so I'm really balancing all the time. So that's what I came up with. So it was just the conversation of realizing that there are people who don't have the knowledge, the actual knowledge, that the walk, the talk thing to the degree that I do, to where I can take a program deeper and further, because you're gonna be learning it, so to speak. As you see it, you're gonna be, you'll always be ahead of your students.

Matt Strunk (35:26)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Kathleen Flanagan (35:56)
You know what I mean? But you'll also have the insight of what's coming next kind of thing. And that's what I saw after I met you.

Matt Strunk (36:01)
Yeah. Yup.

That's awesome. Yeah. No, makes sense. And that, yeah, because I think I told you on our call too, like, I think of it like a funnel, hopefully not just from marketing and sales, but a funnel where it's like on the very top or folks that are holiest, like they're not, I'm not ready for any of this, you know? And on the bottom is you're really open for like the deep truth and you're, you know, and I see what I normally serve is like that in the middle space of like bridging that gap of like talking the language of

Kathleen Flanagan (36:14)
Right. Right.

Matt Strunk (36:35)
maybe entrepreneurs or whatever and like making it a safe space and then taking them down and then like hand them off. There you go. I got you that down to this part of the funnel and now you go somewhere else. But with what you're saying, that could help just continue the path down the funnel, ⁓ you know, even further with that, with that extra skill. So.

Kathleen Flanagan (36:52)
Right, and it could take

you to a different level. It could branch out. There could be new discoveries that you have along the way. And I think that's what's powerful is, you know, when somebody's walked the talk and has 20 years or more on you, it's a little bit more of a stronger selling point because I know the emotional side to it where you're like, I think this might work.

kind of thing, you know, like when we have to get into the head of somebody and you're, it's like, my God, you're speaking to me. Well, I know how to speak to those people and maybe you don't necessarily have that fully developed, but if I give you a course, you do it, you learn it, stick, know, whatever you need to, then you can speak it and take your course to a whole new level and reach that many more people. And what we're doing is we're all spiraling up.

Matt Strunk (37:22)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's cool.

Yep. Yep. Exactly. Together.

Kathleen Flanagan (37:49)
We're all ascending.

Yeah, because it's to me, it's not a competition. It's about helping each other grow and evolve and ascend. And that's what I how I see it, because I have never looked at anybody that's been on my show that may have been my competition. I don't see them as competition. I never have. I see them as if you if I'm not going to work for you, maybe this person will and please go to them. That's why I'm doing this. This is that.

Matt Strunk (38:00)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Kathleen Flanagan (38:20)
your language is different than mine, even though we're similar.

Matt Strunk (38:24)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and that's exactly a good point because, and certain people respond to different things, you know, and it's like, just whatever they need to hear or however they need to be approached, it's great, you know? If that's not me, that's fine too, and I agree. Like trying to build that network of resources and people that can help. Even with some of the people I've been working with, like I have a... ⁓

a guy I've worked with who's more of like a clinical therapist and you know, internal family system, like all that kind of stuff. So I work with him in that capacity too, where it's like, I'll just bring him in if it's getting somewhere I don't want to go. You know, that's, that's, but yeah. Exactly. Yep.

Kathleen Flanagan (39:01)
Well, yeah, and you're not qualified to go there because sometimes people

need a little bit more than you have. So isn't it great? Because what does that do? They remember you that you cared enough that you had somebody that they could go to that they liked and trust and healed. Because it's word of mouth kind of thing. So how can people get a hold of you, Matt?

Matt Strunk (39:18)
Exactly. Yep.

So, Illumishift.com, so that's I-L-L-U-M-I shift.com is a good place to start. And I just launched a YouTube channel pretty recently actually, and it's at Matthew-Strunk. So that's where I put out a lot of content. And yeah, I think those are the two best places, because on the website you can contact me through the form in there or schedule a discovery call. Those are the two places I'd probably plug.

Kathleen Flanagan (39:50)
Well, that was so cool. so glad that you were able to join me on the show today. I know that I love the fact that, you know, we all go through it doesn't matter what level of awareness that you're at. We all still go through those little spaces in between that we that we do. And I remember as a young kid going through school and no, you know, no kids in the school or an empty mall and

always feeling that, but never realizing what it was that I felt when I came up with this and created this. like, that's exactly what it is. That uncomfortable place between two worlds. Where we are and where we're going. So I really love that you brought some very practical tools and that you're doing this to help people to start navigating because we all need a little help every now and then. So I really do appreciate you coming on the show today, Matt.

Matt Strunk (40:23)
Yeah.

Yeah.

So yeah, thanks for having me. This is great.

Kathleen Flanagan (40:49)
You're welcome.

And if you all enjoy the show, I would really appreciate it if you like the like or subscribe to it. can always, Matt's stuff will be in the show notes. So if you want to reach out to him, feel free to do that. If you know that this show can help somebody, please share the link, save somebody's life. Just take it upon yourself that this is an act of love and nothing else.

And I will see all of you guys next week, Tuesday at 4 p.m. Eastern Standard Time. And from my heart to yours, I hope you have a fabulous week.