The Transformative Pilgrimage on the Camino - Exploring Resilience and Spiritual Discovery

KATHLEEN: Today. I have Kathleen Donnelly Israel here to speak with us today about her adventures on the Camino.

KATHLEEN: Wisdom On The Camino is an enjoyable book about a 70 year old young widow's journey and adventures walking the Camino Santiago de Compas Dela, 500 miles across the Northern Spain Solo where she shared her spiritual philosophies. And who she met along the way, welcome, Kathleen.

KATHLEEN D.: So happy to be here, Kathleen.

KATHLEEN: I'm really excited and you need to tell everybody about this journey. I thought it was fascinating. It was the first time I ever heard about the Camino. I was telling my hairstylist yesterday about your trip and she's, what's the Camino?

KATHLEEN: I told her what it was and I would love to dive more into what that journey was. Why you chose to do it? What all the different experiences that you went through, especially at your young age.

KATHLEEN D.: I was pretty busy before this age. Now is the time, right?

KATHLEEN D.: I was taking care of my husband for quite a few years. He was diagnosed with Parkinson's disease in 2001. He died in 2018. I was a caregiver for quite a few of those years. After 2010, he was totally disabled. I had to come to grips with the rest of my life.

KATHLEEN D.: I thought we would be doing things together in our old age, but obviously not. In 2013, while I was really in the depths of caring for my husband, my friend Judy went on the Camino Santiago. I recognized that she was doing something very special for herself.

KATHLEEN D.: I thought, you know what, when Ron's done with his disease, I'm gonna do that. That's what I did. He died in August of 2018 and by January, I was done with all the paperwork and stuff that you have to do when people die. I thought I'm gonna get knowledgeable about the Camino and I'm gonna go do it.

KATHLEEN D.: I started watching youtubes and reading everything I could, I bought a book. I went to, what do you call a lecture at the library? This lady was telling people how to pack light for the Camino. She asked, it was a full room. She asked the group how many of you are planning to walk the Camino?

KATHLEEN D.: I was the only one that raised my hand. I think all those other people wanted to know how to pack light. It was really good and she set me straight about some of the things that I needed to know. I was very grateful that I had that experience.

KATHLEEN: How long was this journey?

KATHLEEN D.: Well, I'm an old lady and I got a bum foot. So it took me a little longer than other people. Maybe I was on the Camino for 66 days, but I took holy week off and I took every Sunday off. I was walking and like it got to be Sunday and I would walk and then I got in and I was really tired.

KATHLEEN D.: I laid down on my bed and then I thought, oh, yeah, mass. I asked somebody if there was a pilgrim mass and they said it was over. I thought, ok, I'm on a holy pilgrimage and I'm not even going to mass on Sunday.

KATHLEEN D.: I decided I would take Sunday off. On Saturday night, I would get a hotel because you can only stay one night in the Alberga which are for the for the pilgrims. I had to get a hotel on Saturday night and stay till Monday and leave Monday.

KATHLEEN: I think you just surprised me. I thought that you were on this journey out in the wilderness with a group of people hiking, carrying all your stuff on the back. That's not what this is.

KATHLEEN: I didn't know that you stayed in hotels or you could take the day off or, went by myself.

KATHLEEN D.: I went by myself. Me and my guardian angels, we went. If you go with somebody, you're gonna either have to walk fast for them or they're gonna have to walk slow for you, or something like that. It's really good to go by yourself and you meet a lot of people along the way.

KATHLEEN D.: Every once in a while I would hook up with somebody and I would walk with them for a couple of days and then we would have a reason to part and then I would be on my own again. Every day you go into these Alberga. An Alberga is a big building that has bunk beds all over the place and a bathroom and a kitchen, dining room, something like that. You can just stay there one night.

KATHLEEN D.: You get a Pilgrim passport when you first start and and every night you, they, you go to the Alberga and they fill it out for you. So that the next place knows that you are a pilgrim. They only let pilgrims into the, into the Alberga. Then you can only spend one night. If you get sick or if you, I wanted to take Sunday off, you have to get a hotel.

KATHLEEN D.: The Alberta's are like 5 to €12 a night and the hotel can be maybe 30 to €100 a night. I tried to get the €30 ones. I had a book and in the book it told you how far apart things were. I could and also the altitude. I could see, ok, well, tomorrow there's a mountain, maybe I can only walk 12 kilometers tomorrow or if it's flat, maybe I can walk 15 to 18 kilometers.

KATHLEEN D.: You get to know your tools and then you can figure out what you need to do. I called the day before to the Alberga and to ask them if I could have a bed and they wrote my name down. When I got there, they said sorry, we're full up. I said I have a reservation and then they let me in. That was good.

KATHLEEN: What transpired when you were out there when you weren't talking or walking with anyone? What were things that came up for you during your sojourn during the week or the days? However, that looked for you?

KATHLEEN D.: I'm was awed at the beauty of the nature in Northern Spain. It's so beautiful. Like the first day when I left San Jean Pai deport, I actually walked the wrong way for four kilometers. I had to turn back. I added eight kilometers onto my first day.

KATHLEEN D.: I got in late that day. I remember walking through this beautiful area. The mountains were so high and I was supposed to go over the Pyrenees, but the Pyrenees there was snow there and they weren't allowing anybody to go over the Pyrenees. That was why I went the wrong way.

KATHLEEN D.: I kept looking for the turn off to not go on the Pyrenees and I missed it. I went up to the sign that said, Orison is next and I'm, oh, darn, I'm in the wrong place. I had to go back.

KATHLEEN D.: There were a lot of when you're walking, you see yellow arrows along the way and that tells you which way to go. If you're walking along and you see a yellow arrow pointing that way, then you turn that way. The part, that wasn't over the Pyrenees didn't have very many arrows.

KATHLEEN D.: I followed somebody and I thought, well, I hope they know where they're going. But obviously they didn't, nobody does unless you see an arrow because everybody, unless you've been there before, most people haven't been there before anyway. I followed these people and it turned out to be the right way to go.

KATHLEEN D.: I didn't walk over the Pyrenees but the terrain where I walked it was, really tall mountains and then you go down and then up another tall mountain and down. It was very strenuous but in between the mountains, I remember one place was so beautiful and green and, there were sheep standing on the side of this really steep field and they were eating their grass and their bells were jangling on their necks.

KATHLEEN D.: It felt so special like it was green down below, green, up above green on the sides. It was just green with all these sheep.

KATHLEEN: You're traversing them, you're carrying your backpack with you. Correct?

KATHLEEN D.: Right. That's the thing. You gotta make your backpack not very heavy or you're gonna be sorry. There's a science of buying clothing that's not heavy.

KATHLEEN D.: I used reI and Amazon to get my clothing and I'd put in lightweight sun protection shirt and then I would see what they had and sometimes if you got weird colors, they were cheaper because people were trying to get rid of their weird colored clothes. I had weird colored clothes when I was on the Camino, but I didn't care. They were lightweight.

KATHLEEN: We are talking to Kathleen Donnelly Israel about her adventures on the Camino. Tell me, what was the weather like over there during the 66 days?

KATHLEEN D.: I got all the weather. The rain in Spain stays mainly on the plane. So there I was on the plane but, it was April when I started, I finished in June.

KATHLEEN D.: There was rain. I remember thinking when I got dressed in the morning, if it was 65 degrees, then I didn't need my jacket on. I watched the weather quite a bit and actually, on my iphone, I got the weather in Fahrenheit. It wasn't a mystery to me like it was when I saw the heaters and things. I was, oh, yeah, I don't know what to ask it for.

KATHLEEN D.: One thing that I found out is that it's good to have a poncho with arms in it that is made very big in the back to go over your pack. When I first started, I brought, a poncho from home and, it blew over my head. You need your arms in something to hold it down around you.

KATHLEEN D.: One of the big problems was where to go to the bathroom on the Camino because if you drink a lot of coffee at breakfast, you're gonna have a problem. One of the things that I did, they have bars in each town and on my little book, it told me how far it was between towns. I could be, ok, I gotta walk two miles and I'll get to a town.

KATHLEEN D.: They probably have a bar and then I can go to the restroom, or else, there's the bushes. I remember the first time I found a place in the bushes to go and I went in there and there was toilet paper everywhere. I was so horrified that people did that because I had a bag to put mine in. Then, ok, that was the first time, but after a while when I went in the bushes and I saw all the toilet paper, I thought, oh, well, I guess this is a good place to go.

KATHLEEN D.: Everybody else found this place too. In the beginning I thought maybe I should pick it up because I'm not a litter bug. Then I thought, well, that's pretty disgusting. I better not do that. I think that would be a really good thing to do is to get a bucket and one of those grabby things and walk the Camino, picking up toilet paper in the bushes.

KATHLEEN D.: But what I do is I go to a bar andI felt like I had to get something to use their bathroom. I would go in and order a coffee cone leche and go use the restroom. Then maybe the next time I would go, I would get an Agua Grande a big water, because I drank three Agua Grandes a day.

KATHLEEN D.: They said you don't have to worry about the water that they have very good water except for one day, somebody was using some kind of stuff on their fields and everybody got Montezuma's revenge. Even the cows had it, I was walking out there and the cows, you could see it all over the place. I'm, yeah, everybody's got it.

KATHLEEN D.: I started buying the water at the bar because I had to go and use the restroom. I might as well. I had to buy something and then maybe I would get a Melo Catan which is peach juice or they had this thing called tortilla and it's a Spanish tortilla which is like a quiche with potatoes and onions in it, like egg and milk and potatoes and onions.

KATHLEEN D.: It was a good thing to eat along the way. I'd buy one to eat there and then have them wrap me up one to take with me. That was really good. After a while I got smart about, that lady hikers should wear skirts, not pants.

KATHLEEN D.: Because when you have to go in the woods, you have to bare your butt if you're a girl. If you have a skirt on, at least that covers you up. At one point, I was ill and so I had to stay in this place for a while. I cut up one of my pairs of pants and made a skirt out of it so I could wear that. I wouldn't have to bear my butt.

KATHLEEN: What epiphanies did you have as you were walking? The Camino?

KATHLEEN D.: I wanted to say that the epiphanies was the beauty. Just the beauty of walking along. The birds are singing. There's off the wall art all over the place in Spain. Like on the wall, a beautiful big dove with roses around it on this giant wall.

KATHLEEN D.: Noticing how other people live and noticing how I felt when I was in certain places there were certain places that I felt so comfortable and I hated to leave. I just hated to leave.

KATHLEEN D.: Remember, you get, you know, especially when I stayed the weekend and then it would be time to go. I got into the local culture and it was hard to leave. Sometimes some of those places that were lovely, the epiphany. I think the beauty, there were so many amazing experiences.

KATHLEEN D.: I remember walking through this forever field and it wasn't like beautiful and green like other places. It was arid. I was walking along and I saw in the distance this really cool, it was a ruin. Some of the walls were up but they were spires and arches. It was an ancient building and I thought, wow, so amazing.

KATHLEEN D.: Somebody came all the way out here in the middle of nowhere and built this giant beautiful building. When I got closer, I saw the sign, it said Convent Of Saint Alfonso or something like that or started with an A. I went in under one of the arches and I heard Irish fairy music and I was, whoa, I love Irish fairy music.

KATHLEEN D.: Then I looked over to the right and there was this guy, this Filipino guy and he had a Kilt on a green and red plaid Kilt and a t-shirt, like a T shirt. He was making egg salad sandwiches for people. I was just, oh my goodness, how random is this?

KATHLEEN D.: I asked him if he had a restroom and he pointed over there - was a trailer with restrooms in it. I went over there and used it and then I, I bought a cup of coffee for him cause I can't eat sandwiches. Bread isn't good for me. I bought a cup of coffee and it was so lovely just to be there.

KATHLEEN D.: I was really surprised at my strength that I had, I didn't have to get upset. That's one thing that I really liked about traveling alone is there's no drama. All you have is yourself and you're gonna get mad at yourself?

KATHLEEN D.: I don't think so. I was in this monastery one time and the guy who did the intake didn't tell us when we had to leave. I had been so tired because there was so much snoring in the Al Brigade that I hadn't slept in five nights. I was talking to this lady and she said, why don't you sleep in and get up and leave late.

KATHLEEN D.: That's what I did. He came in at 8:30. He was angry at us for still being there. He forgot to tell us we had to be out by 8:30.

KATHLEEN D.: He was yelling. I was in there making breakfast at 8:30 and he came up and started yelling. Everybody else who was eating breakfast left and I was standing there making my eggs. I just smiled at him because he was speaking in Spanish, I couldn't really tell what he wanted, but I kind of knew what he wanted.

KATHLEEN D.: I just smiled at him and he left. He came back. I was making my lunch and his eyes bugged out and he started yelling at me again. I was smiling at him. I don't know what you're talking about buddy. He found his English words and told me I was ruining his life because he needed to clean the kitchen and get home to his family.

KATHLEEN D.: I was, ok. I put my stuff together and I went and got my pack and I was ready to leave and I tried to go in the restroom and he was standing in front of the ladies' room with a mop across one side and a broom across the other side, like an X like you can't get in. Then he looked at me and he said out now and he pointed to the door and I was, oh, gosh.

KATHLEEN D.: I was trying to imagine leaving without going to the restroom first. I went out the door and I walked very carefully down the stairs because I was very careful not to fall on my trip at all. I'm not falling. This lady in the garden told me leave.

KATHLEEN D.: I said, well, I don't know how to leave there. I don't know where the door out is. She led me over to where he had taken us in off the street and there was a restroom in there. I was, oh, ok, I'll use the restroom here and then I'll leave. I did that when I came out of the restroom.

KATHLEEN D.: That man who had been yelling at me was looking at me sheepishly and he had his hand out in front of him with my medals. I had some metals pinned on to my shirt and I guess when I grabbed my pack, they flew off. He had my medals and he was handing them to me with his hand and he was really sad.

KATHLEEN D.: One of the medals was missing. I said, well, what about Saint Jerome? He goes Saint Jerome and he went out was looking in the grass and I was, well, that's kind of odd. I started looking in the grass too. We didn't find Saint Jerome. I told him, maybe Saint Jerome's for somebody else.

KATHLEEN D.: I left, I was proud of myself for not getting all frustrated and frazzled. It was kind of a God's in charge situation where I was doing what I was doing. That was kind of an interesting situation that.

KATHLEEN: We have Kathleen Donnelly Israel with us today talking about her adventures on the Camino. When did you head out after, how long was it before you went right after your husband passed away? I should say, did you grieve while you're on the Camino as well?

KATHLEEN D.: When somebody gets Parkinson's disease, you get to do your grieving when they get the disease. You have to give up your life. Life's not gonna be the same. I had to quit my job to take care of my husband.

KATHLEEN D.: I did have grief when he died because even though I had to care for him and even though he was in a wheelchair, he couldn't walk or talk, I could still, dress him up and take him to the theater. We go to watch Shakespeare plays. We love Shakespeare and I'd take him down to the bay or the ocean and, push his wheelchair from Mission Beach to Pacific Beach and, back again.

KATHLEEN D.: He was my date and even though he couldn't put his arm around me, I could pick up his arm and put it around me. I didn't have that anymore after he died. Iit's called grief and relief. That's what I had grief and relief, heavy on the relief.

KATHLEEN D.: I'm sure I did grieve on the Camino. Actually, when you're a caregiver, your health goes way down and that's why I got sick a couple of times because I wasn't strong. I wasn't strong. I had been walking with my friend on the bay.

KATHLEEN D.: That's how I knew I could do it because I walk with Vera. I walked, five miles, three days a week and I thought, well, I can do this. I can walk five miles before lunch and five miles after lunch and I can do this. I wasn't worried about it.

KATHLEEN D.: I know my health was way down and being in the beautiful nature was healing for me. It just lifted my heart and also not having anybody to answer to. I got married from my mother's house.

KATHLEEN D.: I went to Ron's house and even though we were both young, I was never alone. I raised five kids with my husband. That was a big deal and then he got sick and I was totally committed. This was a gift that I gave to myself to go on the Camino.

KATHLEEN: I had a friend who she was a caregiver for her husband and when he passed away, it was the same thing. The grief and relief that you were talking about. She and I went on this Thelma and Louise trip. I had no idea she was that sick when we were on this trip, I knew that she had to recover.

KATHLEEN: Her body was worn out and I got all that. But to understand the depth of her illness she had a bladder infection, she couldn't shake colds. Little things and it was about her coming back and regaining her strength as well.

KATHLEEN: We did a lot of talking about her being that caregiver and what that was. Even though she fell back in love with her husband during parts of this, it was still very challenging because when we traveled, we were taking everything but the kitchen sink and I said, you've got to not do this.

KATHLEEN: She said I had to do this because I don't know what's going to come up. I said you can always go to the store and buy something.

KATHLEEN D.: Yeah, that's the thing. Spain is not a third world country. You can always go to, they got everything there.

KATHLEEN: I know, but it was like we were in Arizona. Ok. We went to Las Vegas, we went to Arizona and we came home and we went to New Mexico. It was so funny, but I wanted to be a support for her at that point because a lot of people were either telling her to stay home and grieve or get over it. It was one or the other.

KATHLEEN: This is a 40 some year marriage and I felt bad for her. Do whatever you want to do? Do what you need to do for you. I'm here to listen. I don't need to talk. I don't need to do anything. If you need to pour out your heart, you're more than welcome to do that. What we ended up doing was we were like two girls having an adventure, young girls, having an adventure.

KATHLEEN: That's what she needed to rejuvenate her spirit. Let's go do something different. Let's go do something fun. We had all these adventures that were going on around us. I mean, there was this nasty storm that we were ahead of and we're just, oh my God, this storm and then we go over to Roswell and then there's this whole story of what happened in Roswell with us.

KATHLEEN D.: You should write a book.

KATHLEEN: I wrote all of that down. I wrote all of that because it was an amazing, it was an amazing trip that the two of us had done at that period of time. What was the part that got me the most was on the way back. We stayed in Colorado. We got over Raton Pass and we stayed down in Raton and we stayed in the same room that her husband was in right before he died.

KATHLEEN: She said he had fallen and there was blood everywhere but it was more water. I said, are you sure you wanna be in this room? How would I know? She's telling me this whole story of what happened on that trip on that this was their last trip. John ended up coming in, he put me to sound asleep.

KATHLEEN: He came in and she's telling me that this story of John coming in and what's going on in the light and all these things that were going on during this period. It was amazing because I was talking to John and asking him for something and even though I didn't see him, Dee was telling me this most incredible story and this was part of her healing process that he was healthy.

KATHLEEN: He was vibrant. She knew all this but that there was a peace about coming there. There was closure, that's the word I'm looking for. There was closure in that. We are with somebody who cared about John and her very very much. They were a couple of my best friends. I really loved them to death.

KATHLEEN: They were very supportive people, very angelic. John had the sense of humor that never stopped. He didn't say much. But when he did, you're on the floor laughing because that quick wit, it was an enjoyable experience. That's why I was asking if you had things along those ways on the Camino because that was a spiritual pilgrimage. Even if it was to restore your spirit.

KATHLEEN D.: When I used to travel, I went to school in Switzerland for a couple of summers and I would go around and find heart shaped rocks so I could bring them home and show Ron I was thinking about him. When I was walking along, I kept seeing heart shaped rocks.

KATHLEEN D.: Every 10th step I would see a heart shaped rock. I couldn't even bend over and pick them all up because there were so many, they were everywhere. I even saw a dog doo shaped like a heart.

KATHLEEN: He was walking with you. What a beautiful story.

KATHLEEN D.: Yeah. He was there and when I see butterflies, I think he's near also. When I would see butterflies it was very special.

KATHLEEN D.: They have red poppies along the way in Spain in spring and I would see little butterflies flying between the red poppies. It was so beautiful.

KATHLEEN: Oh, that's beautiful. That had to warm your heart being on this little adventure all by yourself and having your husband there and these gifts that spirit is giving you of butterflies, which is transformation.

KATHLEEN: That's a journey of transformation, what you were doing. However, that looks in your life when you came back, I don't know if there was anything, feel free to talk about that, I'd love to know.

KATHLEEN D.: After Ron died, I had my brother-in-law go through the house and take everything out of the house that reminded me of the illness. I still had Ron's things in the house and I would try and get rid of them and then I felt I was getting rid of Ron again. That was really difficult and I was just surrounded by Ron's stuff in my house and it was good to get away from it.

KATHLEEN D.: That was very healing to, to get away from it.

KATHLEEN D.: I have another story that's just so lovely. After I was done with the Camino, I went to Scotland because Ron and I had gone to Scotland and it was while he was sick. We took this really long walk and I was thinking at that time, every once in a while he couldn't walk anymore, and I was, this is a little bit dangerous going for this long walk with Ron.

KATHLEEN D.: We did and I found a heart shaped rock that was so perfect. It was amazing. I picked it up and put it in my pocket. I heard in my mind, in my imagination, my mind throw it in the lake, throw the heart rock in the lake. I was in my mind, I said, no, I need it. I need, I felt like I needed something lovely and wonderful cause I was going into this illness with Ron.

KATHLEEN D.: I said, I'll bring it back later. After he died, I still had that rock in my purse and I actually had two rocks because I found another perfect heart shaped rock. I couldn't remember which was which. I just brought them both. I went out to Aviemore, which is where Lake Eileen is. I took a walk out where we had walked and while I was walking, in my mind said I'm back.

KATHLEEN D.: Do you remember me? The wind started blowing. I was, oh, they remember me. I walked and walked and I got to Lake Eileen and the place where I had heard that voice in my head. I took the two rocks and I threw them in the lake and then the wind died down and I was, it was really a completion because I didn't need it anymore because I was ok. Now, you know.

KATHLEEN: What a beautiful story.

KATHLEEN: I have Kathleen Donnelly Israel with us. We are getting ready to wind down the show. How can people get a hold of you? I know you have a book out there, right?

KATHLEEN D.: My website is wisdom on the Camino dot com. My book is Wisdom on the Camino, a spiritual journey, sharing, forgiveness and possibilities to inspire the rest of your life. I want to tell everybody that I have a gift with purchase. Across from the table of contents.

KATHLEEN D.: It says read this first and you can opt in to see my pictures. Everybody was, oh, Kathleen, you gotta share your pictures. I was like,, if I put my pictures in the book, it'll be $50 and nobody will buy it.

KATHLEEN D.: I made a website and portfolios and galleries. When you read chapter one, you can see the pictures of chapter one and chapter two, all the chapters. That's my gift. Sorry, you have to double opt in, but that's just the way the world is now.

KATHLEEN: That's true.

KATHLEEN: What would be the one thing you would tell our listeners that helped you the most or advanced you where you are or changed your mindset? What would be the one thing that you would recommend to the listeners if they're wanting to do something like this or something different? What words of encouragement can give them to help them get over the fear?

KATHLEEN D.: Gee, I never had fear because I have my guardian angels and they, I know them personally, they came with me.

KATHLEEN D.: The Camino isn't scary. It's difficult in some areas. But you know, walking is a low tech skill, 1 ft in front of the other. You can just prepare yourself ahead of time. There's help for things.

KATHLEEN D.: I'm thinking if they wanted to do something else besides the Camino, there's all kinds of help on YouTube for everything for gosh sakes. That's what I used the YouTube to find out how to do the Camino. If you want to do something, you need to just do it.

KATHLEEN D.: What if you fail? It's better to try something and fail than to not try something. If you don't try it's 100%. Yeah, it's not gonna work. You have to try.

KATHLEEN D.: You can have a lot of fun along the way. On the way over there I stayed in Paris for a week so I wouldn't have jet lag when I started. That was lovely. I went took tours of this, that and the other thing all day long. I did an art experience in Paris and stuff. There's all kinds of stuff that you can do.

KATHLEEN D.: It's not expensive to walk the Camino. A lot of the places are donation.

KATHLEEN D.: You can find the little books, tell you how much it costs to stay in the different places. You can stay in a cheap place if you need to. The people, they're all searching people too.

KATHLEEN D.: Walking the Camino is a walking meditation so you can do it. One prayer that I always say when I don't know what to do. If I can't fix something, I have a prayer and the prayer is dear God, please make everything turn out. Ok?

KATHLEEN D.: Then you let God make everything turn out Ok. You can say dear God, thank you for making everything turn out Ok. Even before it turns out, OK, it's incredible that prayer will give you miracles. It's really important not to worry.

KATHLEEN D.: Worrying is making up a sad story and then believing in it and going with it. It's better to make up a good story. When you think of what you could possibly worry about, you need to change your mind and because the sad story isn't true. It's not true. You could make up a good story and then put a good spin on what you're doing with your own imagination.

KATHLEEN: I love that. That is a perfect way to end the show. That's so beautifully spoken. Change the story. I love it. I love that. Just change the story to something positive because we need that to do. We need to do that for ourselves.

KATHLEEN D.: There's enough doom and gloom in the world.

KATHLEEN: I know when there's enough doom and gloom out there, why not create a beautiful life for yourself? Even if it's just in your mind? Because what's gonna happen, you might create it. You just might have that love for yourself.

KATHLEEN D.: We create grace around us and it's a high vibration and we can live in that high vibration.

KATHLEEN: Yes, we can. I want to thank you so much Kathleen for coming on the show today. What an adventure that you've taken on. I know that you've done a few more trips, taken on a few more hikes. I really do appreciate that you give hope for people as we mature. Just because we're a certain age, it's just a number. You've proven that it's just a number.

KATHLEEN: It's just a number. Your spirit is still young. Your spirit still wants to learn, it still wants to grow and evolve. You did a perfect demonstration of that for us today that regardless of what happened in your life, instead of staying home and grieving, you went out and said, I'm gonna do something for me for once. You go, you go, girl, you go, girl.